It's Time To Talk About "Black Privilege"

Submitted by: theman01 1 week ago Lifestyle

From CNN by John Blake, March 31, 2016

Here's some good news for black people complaining about racism in America.

You don't know how good you have it.

At least that's the message I heard during one of the strangest conversations I've ever had about race. I was talking about the concept of white privilege -- the belief that being white comes with unearned advantages and everyday perks that its recipients are often unaware of. I asked a white retiree if he believed in the existence of white privilege. He said no, but there was another type of privilege he wanted to talk about: "Black privilege."

Confused by his answer, I asked him to give me an example of a perk that I enjoyed as a black man that he couldn't. His answer: "Black History Month."

"In America you can't even talk about whiteness," said Drew Domalick, who lives in Green Bay, Wisconsin. "If you try to embrace being white, you are portrayed as being a racist. If we had a White History Month, that would be viewed as a racist holiday."

Domalick isn't the only one who believes in black privilege. The term is being deployed in conservative circles as a rhetorical counterattack to the growing use of the term "white privilege." It's part of a larger transformation: White is becoming the new black. 

Google the phrase "black privilege," and one steps into a universe where whites struggle daily against the indignities heaped upon them because of their skin color. In books and articles such as "Black Skin Privilege and the American Dream," and "It's Past Time to Acknowledge Black Privilege," white commentators describe how blackness has become such a "tremendous asset" that some whites are now trying to "pass" as black.

If you're a skeptic, there's even a "Black Privilege Checklist" listing some of the perks blacks enjoy that whites cannot.

"Here's how great it is to be white. I can get in a time machine and go to any time, and it would be awesome when I get there. ... A black guy in a time machine is like, hey, any time before 1980, no thank you." -- Louis C.K., comedian

A sample:

Blacks can belong to clubs and organizations that cater specifically to their race, but there's no National Association for the Advancement of White People because such a group would be deemed racist. Blacks can call white people "honky" and "cracker," but whites cannot use the N-word.
The concept of black privilege is still so new, though, that some of the nation's most acclaimed scholars on race didn't even know it existed. One giggled when she heard the phrase because she thought it was a joke. Others were bewildered; some became angry.

Count Peggy McIntosh as one of the angry. She is arguably more responsible for popularizing the concept of white privilege than anyone else. An activist and retired Wellesley College professor, her 1989 essay "White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack" has been widely reprinted and is now taught in many colleges. Her essay gives examples of what McIntosh calls white privilege ("I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed; If a traffic cop pulls me over ... I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race").
McIntosh scoffed at the idea of black privilege. 

"When you've had as much freedom to do what you want to do and think what you want and say what you want and act as you please, then you get irrationally rankled at having to curtail your life and your thought in any way," says McIntosh, who also founded the National SEED project, which helps teachers create courses that are more gender sensitive and multicultural.
She said the black privilege checklist sounds like a "prolonged whine" from people who resent being challenged about their white privilege.
Why it's good to be black
Black privilege may be new, but some of the rhetoric defending it is at least two centuries old. As far back as the late 19th century, whites were saying that blacks weren't so much victims of racism as they were victims of special treatment.
The 19th century U.S. Supreme Court echoed that thinking in one of its most infamous decisions. Congress had passed a sweeping Civil Rights Act in 1875 that banned discrimination against former slaves in public places. But the Supreme Court declared that act unconstitutional in 1883, a decision that sanctioned the rise of Jim Crow segregation and mob violence against blacks that would last a century.

In the high court's 1883 decision, Justice Joseph Bradley wrote in the majority opinion that there must come a time when blacks cease "to be the special favorite of the laws."
Over the years, that sentiment bubbled to the surface at various times as debates over "reverse racism" and affirmative action erupted. Yet something new is now happening. More whites have begun talking about themselves as a racially oppressed majority. In a widely publicized 2011 survey, white Americans said they suffer from racial discrimination more than blacks.

Peggy McIntosh, an activist who helped popularize the term "white privilege," says those who believe in black privilege are whiners.

Where does this belief come from? The numbers don't appear to support it. Numerous studies and surveys show that blacks lag behind whites and other racial groups in many socioeconomic categories.

The wealth of white households is 13 times the median wealth of black households. Black children represent 18% of the nation's preschool enrollment but make up nearly half of all children with multiple suspensions. Job applicants with white-sounding names are 50% more likely to get called back for an interview than similarly qualified applicants with black-sounding names. And prison sentences for black men are nearly 20% longer than those of white men convicted for similar crimes. 

Some say you don't even need numbers to dismiss black privilege. Use your eyes. If being black is such an asset, why do many whites consistently move out of communities -- neighborhoods, churches, schools -- when too many blacks move in? It's a phenomenon that sociologists have long documented and that some call "racial tipping."

Those who argue for the existence of black privilege, however, don't deny these grim numbers. They just don't blame racism for those racial disparities.
David Horowitz, author of the book, "Black Skin Privilege and the American Dream," says blacks are still more privileged, though they lag behind other racial groups in varying categories. It's not white privilege that's preventing them from doing better, he says; it's their behavior, such as their inability to build more intact families.

"The fact that white people are better off is not a privilege; it's earned," says Horowitz, founder of the David Horowitz Freedom Center, a think tank in Los Angeles created to combat "the efforts of the radical left and its Islamist allies to destroy American values."

The fact that white people are better off is not a privilege; it's earned. -- David Horowitz, author of "Black Skin Privilege and the American Dream"

Not all racial disparities are inherently racist, he says.

"If racial disparities prove discrimination, then the National Basketball Association is racist," Horowitz says. "Probably 90 percent of its players are black."

Black privilege is so pervasive that it's hard to miss, he says. College professors practicing "affirmative grading" hold black students to lower standards than others. Corporations offer programs and internships to black workers but not to whites. 

Black privilege even extends to the White House, he says. Barack Obama was an inexperienced presidential candidate who was elected because Americans wanted to experience a post-racial sugar high, he says. "He wouldn't be elected dogcatcher if he wasn't black," Horowitz says of Obama.

Some who invoke "black privilege" also make another argument: Who says all unearned advantages are wrong?

In fact, some are unavoidable, says Benjamin Shapiro, a political commentator and author of an essay titled "Why White People Seek Black Privilege."

"Birth to a two-parent family is an unearned advantage. Birth into wealth is an unearned advantage. Being born smart or tall or athletic is an unearned advantage," Shapiro says. "But being born white in a rural backwater in West Virginia is not an advantage over being born the son of Colin Powell."

Blackness, though, has become a "tremendous asset" in contemporary America, he writes in his column. Despite the "horrific and evil history of racism against black people," being black today gives its recipients privileges ranging from landing coveted college scholarships to becoming activists who can build careers on racial grievances, he says.

There are even whites now who try to pass themselves off as black activists because it's a career booster, Shapiro says. He cites Rachel Dolezal, the former head of an NAACP chapter, who said "I identify as black" but was called white by her family members.

Who is Rachel Dolezal?

"Being black confers the advantage of rhetorical victimhood," says Shapiro, host of "The Morning Answer" radio show in Los Angeles. "Accusing others of racism is a convenient way of avoiding discussion on uncomfortable topics ranging from murder rates to poverty rates to single motherhood rates." 
'We swim in white supremacy'
Arguments for black privilege may face a hostile audience as acceptance of the idea of white privilege grows.
The white rapper Macklemore recently released a song titled "White Privilege." The term "check your privilege," a reference to white privilege, has gone mainstream. 
The comedian Louis C.K. even built one of his most popular routines around the concept of white privilege.
"Here's how great it is to be white," he says. "I can get in a time machine and go to any time, and it would be awesome when I get there. ... A black guy in a time machine is like, hey, any time before 1980, no thank you." No one appears to have asked C.K. about black privilege, but others who have explored white privilege in books and essays reject the existence of such a privilege.
Some suggest that people who believe in black privilege still do not understand what white privilege is all about.

Being black is such a privilege that some white people, like Rachel Dolezal, a former NAACP leader, have tried to pass as black, some say. 

Consider a popular argument against white privilege: I grew up poor, and nobody gave me anything. How can you say I'm privileged?

That argument is why Deborah Foster wrote an essay titled "A Guide to White Privilege for White People Who Think They've Never Had Any."

Foster says she grew up in an impoverished white family in Iowa where her parents were so poor, she was placed in foster care as a child because they couldn't afford to feed her.

Still, Foster says she experienced white privilege. She says she only knew that because she happened to live around poor black people. She still had advantages that they did not, she says.
Her black friends would get accused of stealing from stores; she wouldn't, even though she was with them. They would be suspended for missing too many classes or being late; she was placed in a gifted program, even though she also had attendance problems. They were called lazy blacks behind their backs if they missed work at a fast-food restaurant; her behavior was never seen as a reflection on her race.

"We swim in white supremacy, which makes it harder to point out unless you start looking for it," she says.

I'm the beneficiary of the biggest affirmative action program in American history: A free education, a loan for a house. But black veterans didn't get it. We got made middle class by our government program. -- The Rev. Jim Wallis, author of "America's Original Sin," on the GI Bill

Then there is affirmative action. Don't blacks get plenty of perks from affirmative action programs? That's a privilege that whites don't enjoy.

Only if you ignore much of U.S. history, some say. Whites have been the biggest affirmative action beneficiaries in U.S. history -- they've routinely been given advantages in jobs and other economic opportunities that were kept from blacks, says the Rev. Jim Wallis, one of the country's best-known commentators on race.
Wallis, who grew up in a white working-class family in Detroit, says they received special help from a massive government program that was largely denied to black families. It was called the GI Bill, he writes in his new book, "America's Original Sin: Racism, White Privilege, and the Bridge to a New America."

The GI Bill was created for U.S. veterans returning from World War II. The government paid for the college education of white veterans and provided other types of financial aid to them, but black veterans were unable to reap many of the same rewards. 

The exclusionary racial nature of the GI Bill was repeated throughout U.S. history. The financial help and land grants that the U.S. government gave to 19th century homesteaders; the New Deal policies that lifted the nation out of the Great Depression but were kept from many blacks -- that has been the norm, according to historians and books such as "When Affirmative Action Was White," by Ira Katznelson.

"I'm the beneficiary of the biggest affirmative action program in American history," Wallis says. "A free education, a loan for a house. But black veterans didn't get it. We got made middle-class by our government program. It was good. That's privilege."

He says some whites resist the term "white privilege" because they think they're being blamed for something wrong.

"Every white person isn't guilty for every bad thing that's been done to every black person," Wallis says. "But if we benefit from cooperating with white supremacy, then we are responsible for changing it. To tolerate racism in our social system is to be complicit."
Stepping into another time machine.

Perhaps one reason some white people invoke black privilege is because they are tired of being on the defensive. That's the impression I got after talking to Domalick, the Wisconsin retiree.
He is a soft-spoken man who says he doesn't judge people by their race. But he says others often don't return the favor when they see him. He longs for the day when Americans stop talking so much about race, which only increases division.

"If you'd get away from this white-black struggle, people will start coming together," he says.
Maybe. But extend the logic behind the belief in black privilege into other areas, and there could be more strange conversations over race. If someone stepped into the time machine that Louie C.K. imagines and dared to go forward instead of backward, what would they see and hear in the brown new world of a future America?

Would they see a calendar marked by a White History Month? Would they click on the television and see a White Entertainment Network or legions of white citizens marching on Washington, singing "We Shall Overcome"?

And would they hear a white leader step forward at a crowded news conference to announce: "It's time to talk about reparations"?
There are 68 comments:
Male 9
Required reading for any white person should be "Between the World and Me" and "The New Jim Crow." The wealth of white America was built on the backs of slave labor. The prison industrial complex is the new slavery of the 21st century. Fucking read a book people and learn to take the concerns of the black community seriously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rYL83kHQ8Y
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Male 4,388
justanotherhuman To your planet's social web site welcome ~offers tentacled hand to shake~
The Squrl usually does the welcome wagon but he ran off somewhere and I don't know why. 
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Male 9
thezigrat Nice to formally meet you. *shakes tentacled hand* 

I've been a lurker for a couple years now. Next time I'm on I'll bring some nuts. Maybe that will coax him out of hiding.
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Male 792
justanotherhuman Oh, I agree completely with everything you just said. However, most of my problem is that a lot of the things currently going on are ludicrous. We should all feel bad, because, SLAVERY! Yes, slavery is bad, deplorable, in fact. The problem is that I (and all white people in America) am being asked to feel bad about what our ancestors did (or perhaps did not do; I have no idea if any of my ancestors owned slaves or had anything to do with the slave trades) hundreds of years ago. Even if my great-great-great-great-etc. grandfather did own slaves, how is it my responsibility to make recompense for it? How is giving money, or privileges, to anyone alive today making recompense? Have your great-3rd power grandfather dig up my great-3rd power grandfather, and they can work it out. I owe you nothing. Slavery is definitely wrong, but there is nothing that I can do today to make up for what was done to your ancestors. Besides, keep in mind that not all, but certainly quite a lot of the blacks that became slaves, were sold into slavery in Africa. Sold by their own people. How about we make them pay restitution? By the way, just for clarification, the terms "you" and "your" are not referring to any particular person, but are generalizations toward black people in general.
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Male 9
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4hyVKV9Gvc
The first clip is a discussion of "Medical Apartheid: The Dark History of Medical Experimentation on Black Americans from Colonial Times to the Present"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gln1JwDUI64
This clip is of a talk Michelle Alexander gave, where she gives a basic explanation of the main thesis of her book "The New Jim Crow"
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Male 9
whosaidwhat The whole point of my comment was to show that racial oppression still exists to this day. It is not something that is ancient history. Affirmative action is needed to tip the scales, to equalize things a bit. Seriously, read those two books, and then get back to me. 

Really quick note on the whole slavery thing. No, you did not own slaves, but the country that you live in directly benefited from slave labor, and still continues to benefit from btw. More Black people are in prison today than at the height of slavery in the mid 19th century. Many of the industries, cities, and infrastructure that you benefit from came from slave labor. By the middle 19th century, black bodies were the single most valuable commodity over all in the United States, worth around 8 billion dollars in total. Finally, wealth travels from generation to generation btw. White America, has had hundreds of years plus to build up their wealth, years that the  Black American were never afforded. Even after slavery was over, there still was this thing called Jim Crow. Today, Black Americans still are economically disadvantaged through redlining, the prison industrial complex, whack drug laws, discrimination in the job market, and discrimination when it comes to simple things like obtaining a loan from a bank.

I seriously want you to read those books by the by. At least flip through them.
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Male 792
justanotherhuman I don't dispute that racial oppression still exists. In fact, "affirmative action" IS racial oppression. The sentence, "I can't hire you because you are BLACK." would be considered to be extremely racist, and it certainly is. The sentence, "I can't hire you because you are WHITE." is also extremely racist, but it is considered to be "affirmative action". See the difference? This is what most people seem to miss; racism swings both ways. Blacks don't own exclusive rights to being victims of racism. Racism is defined, in a nutshell, as "holding back or oppressing members of one race, in favor of members of another race, or advancing one race over another". If I can't get a job that I am actually better qualified for because of the color of my skin, that is blatant racism, no matter the color of my skin. You can read whatever books you want, and/or spin it however you want, and/or call it whatever you want, but it will still be blatant racism. 

To your second point. "More Black people are in prison today than at the height of slavery in the mid 19th century."  Yep, there sure are. Two reasons. One, there is a much higher black population now than "at the height of slavery in the mid 19th century". Two, who put them in prison? Ultimately, themselves. Yes, I understand your points (kill a man, and go free in under 5 years, but get caught with pot, and serve 10 years? WTF?), but, in at least most cases, they are there because they committed a crime. Are you advocating that we let them off because they are black? Whoops, thats racism again.

Third point, "Many of the industries, cities, and infrastructure that you benefit from came from slave labor." Um, what? Most of what you are referring to came from Roosevelt's "WPA", created under his "New Deal" plan. There was no slavery involved; the people working under the WPA were paid a fair wage.

Fourth, I'll give you that point; wealth does, in at least some cases, travel from generation to generation. However, lets look at it this way (all hypothetical, or course). Through new forensics techniques, it is discovered that my great-great grandmother, who was raped and killed over one hundred years ago, was actually attacked and killed by your great grandfather. There is indisputable proof of this. You are the only surviving descendant of your great grandfather. You are going to jail, due to what your great grandfather did over one hundred years ago. Care to defend that idea? There is absolutely no difference between the two. Most of the issues I've seen with "disadvantaged blacks" is their own fault. They get a poor education, because they are too busy trying to get in girl's pants, doing drugs, trying to get a car that cost thousands more than they could reasonably afford, and complaining about how they are not getting the same education as whites (when they are in the same classrooms as the whites) to actually pay attention and get the education that is right in front of them. Why is it that I know blacks from school who are now very successful, while their next door neighbor from childhood, who had the same opportunities, is not? I also know whites from school who are in worse shape today than some of the blacks. Its all about how you apply yourself. As for a bank loan, would you loan money to someone who can't pay you back? Its called common sense.

Yes, discrimination is alive and well in America today, I totally agree. I have never claimed that it is not. But, please open your eyes, and see that it works both ways. Again, see my definition of "racism" up above. There is racial oppression going on on both sides of the fence. I don't need to read a book to see it; I live in the middle of it in the deep south.
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Male 9
whosaidwhat

Racism in this country does not work "Both Ways." You keep bringing up anecdotal case by case incidences of racism. You bring up the example of being called a honkie. Alright, that's bad and uncalled for but the cases I'm bringing up are systemic and institutionalized racism. There is a huge difference between being honkie and suffering from discrimination in the job market, banking field, housing market, and unequal prison sentences.

If racism worked equally both ways, then you would expect two equal applicants applying for the same job, both with equal attributes to have about the same chance at finding a job. Just having a black sounding name puts you at a statistical disadvantage.
https://www.thenation.com/article/whiteness-still-pays-on-the-job-market/.

You would have a point about the criminal justice system if we were seeing equal outcomes for equal crimes, but we don't. If you had bothered reading Michelle Alexander OR watching the video that I posted, you would see that that in the job market for example, a white felon has an equal chance of getting a job in this country as a black man without a highschool diploma. If institutional racism was not a thing, I would not be for affirmative action, but it is very clear looking at statistics that it is still a thing and very much a necessity to equal out a very much UNEQUAL playing field. Affirmative action is about equalizing opportunity. How would you deal with the systemic racism that you see in the job market? If not through affirmative action, then with what?


If you had bothered reading Michelle Alexander, you would see that even though blacks and whites are just as likely to do drugs, blacks are FAR more likely to be incarcerated for doing drugs, and when they are incarcerated they are incarcerated for longer sentences for EQUAL crimes. Blacks are also far more likely to be put on death row compared to their white counterparts, again, for doing the same crimes. That is a racism that White America does not have to deal with. Blacks also make up just about half of prison inmates even though they make up only a small percentage (12.3) of the population. You can even see racism in the law when looking at differences between sentences for crack cocaine compared to sentences for cocaine users.

Repeatedly throughout your comment you use anecdotal evidence instead of statistical analysis and facts to make a point about the supposedly hard time that whites have in this country when it comes to racism. Throw out some statistics of how hard the white man has it compared to his colored counterparts? Just because the black people that YOU know don't qualify for a loan means jack and shit when looking at the actual reality of banks loaning to blacks in this country. http://atlantablackstar.com/2015/03/03/8-major-american-banks-that-got-caught-discriminating-against-black-people/

I could link you to dozens of suits brought against banks like Bank of America for racist loaning practices. Show me racist loaning practices that the white community has to deal with? I have a feeling ill be waiting a long time.

Lets talk about your comment on education. Blacks and Whites do not go to the same schools. Actual, school segregation hasnt been this high since the 1950's. Black schools do not have nearly the amount of financial resources that white schools have. You know how school funding works, right? School funding largely comes from state and local governments. A wealthy community is far more likely to support a bond measure, or tax increase to pay for a new school or to fix an old one, than a community with a poorer tax base. The best funded schools in this country lay within districts that are largely white. So no, we do not go to the same schools as you all. Our schools are underfunded and undermanned. AP and IB style programs are largely nonexistent. Take it away John Oliver... https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=present+day+school+segregation

Finally, when looking at the theft of wealth from the black community, we are not looking at an individual case, as in your analogy to my grandparents killing your grandparents. We are looking at a whole COMMUNITY that was stolen from over the course of hundreds of years. Its a little different, don't you think?

Racial Oppression does not go both ways. Its not even close. There is not such thing as black privilege. If affirmative action and being called a honkie is the worst thing that white people have to deal with compared to what Ive posted above, I don't see how you really have a case lol.

BTW I ROFL laughed when you said that most of the industries, cities, and infrastructure came from the WPA and then you said that you lived in the Deep South. Look around you brother. How were all those things funded. How did those towns in Alabama, South Carolina, and North Carolina come from? Where did the capital come from to build all that? Those early seaports and railroads, where did the wealth come to build all that? How did agriculture in the South get its start? Both the South and North accumulated vast fortunes from the slave trade that they then plied into industrial ventures.

http://www.curbed.com/maps/slave-labor-white-house-united-states-michelle-obama

https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/04/03/how-the-slave-trade-built-america/





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Male 792
justanotherhuman If you look hard enough, you can find "statistics" to support either side of any argument. Go look at "statistics" about car crashes (at least in the past; this may no longer apply). Statistics clearly show that there are far more red cars involved in crashes than any other color. Does red actually cause more crashes? Or is it perhaps the fact that there are more red cars on the road than any other color? Which do you think it is? However, "statistically" speaking, shouldn't insurance companies charge more to insure red vehicles? They are, after all, involved in more crashes than any other color. Now that you understand how much stock I put in "statistics", we'll move on. 

No, I'm not bringing up "anecdotal" cases of racism. If anything I have cited is "anecdotal", then everything you bring up is as well. Racism is racism. Period. It doesn't matter if its an ongoing trend, or an isolated incident; its still racism. You can quote all the "statistics", books, and videos that you want, but it will never change this point. I never said that racism "works equally both ways", nor would I. Yes, blacks certainly get it much worse than whites, and I never claimed otherwise. I am simply pointing out that whites suffer from racism, as well as blacks. If you can't see this, then you are living in a bubble, and have looked at a few too many "statistics" for your own good.

"Blacks and whites do not go to the same schools". Interesting. Every school in the county I live is has about the same number of blacks versus whites. Thats over a dozen schools in one county alone. Every surrounding county is the same. Every county surrounding them is the same, too. There are no "blacks only" or "whites only" schools in the area; neither by "force", or "choice". They are in the same classrooms, with the same teachers, books, materials, access, and resources. The graduation rate of blacks is abysmal when compared to whites. What do you find different between the two? Except that the majority of the blacks don't bother to apply themselves. Are they  capable? Absolutely. They just don't bother. How is this the fault of whites?

"Theft of wealth". How is my analogy different? You are nitpicking by calling my example an "isolated incident". Yes, it is "isolated", but still very pertinent. Apparently, in your mind, one situation counts because blacks are involved, and the other doesn't, because they aren't. I can see no other difference between them. Race is irrelevant to the situation. Either you can be charged for your ancestors crime, or I owe nothing for what my ancestors did. I can't work both ways. 

Lastly, WPA. Where did the funding for those projects come from? The federal government. Where did they get the money from? Taxes. Were some of the taxes derived from slave-earned profits? No, considering that slavery had been over for almost 100 years by the time the WPA came about. Now, how did slavery pay for any of that? You must be fairly young to believe some of the things that you do. You must have came up after the history books were altered to paint whites in a harsher light, and blacks as even more of victims than they really were. Yes, it happened; I was in school when it started happening. And yes, I know that blacks were horribly oppressed. What was done to your ancestors was wrong; very, very wrong. However, consider the fact that they no longer even MENTION in school the fact that the majority of black slaves were sold into slavery by their own people. All the history books mention now is how the evil white man went to a
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Male 9
whosaidwhat

Lol, Insurance companies do charge more if you drive a red car. ;) Either put up or shut up. See, when you debate about a topic you're supposed to put up evidence to present your argument. I have yet to see you put up any actual evidence, no scholarly articles, no books, no statistics, to support your point of view, and you don't seem to be reading any of the sources I post. I can lead you to water but I cant make you drink. If you can bring up evidence or sources countering what I said, please do. Don't just say "Nah, I don't believe it, it goes both ways." That, my friend, is bullshit, and not a good way to go through life. You attempting to equate what you go through on an everyday basis with what a black person does is quite frankly ridiculous, and minimizes what black people continually have to go through in this country on the daily. I minored in history. If you have any books or studies you think I should read, I would be more than happy to flip through them. 

Apparently you need to look you up the word anecdotal and what it actually means.

If your grandfather stole a painting from a museum, and then bequeathed it to his heir, then the museum finds said painting, they would expect the return of that painting. Even though the grandchildren were not responsible. That's a better analogy.

Again with the anecdotal evidence, just because that's the way it is in your county does not mean that's how it is countrywide. Evidence supports my point of view on this, evidence you have yet to counter. Better outcomes come from better funded schools. Black children go to largely underfunded schools. Hey I used to go to a school that had mostly white kids in it. A lot of them were lazy. Does that mean that I think white people are lazy? Of course not! Such a blanket statement, saying that black people are lazy. That's quite the lazy, racist statement. Come on man, you can do better than that. You, are better than that.

I think you should reread my WPA comment, and then clink on those links I sent you. You clearly did not understand the point of view I was trying to make. Yeah sure, the WPA resulted in a lot of shit built. Soooooo did slavery. Reread my comment, then get back to me.

P.S Oh you mean the textbooks which made that genocidal maniac, Christopher Columbus out to be some hero? Yeah, I don't bother with those much anymore. History in the average classroom is white washed to an insane level. I took part in a classroom discussion years ago. Here's my anecdotal story ;) When these highschoolers were asked how many white literary figures they could think of, many could write down 10 or more given a couple minutes. When asked to name any black authors, at most, one person was able to name 2.


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Male 792
justanotherhuman "Lol, Insurance companies do charge more if you drive a red car." Hey, look, I gave evidence to support my argument. Actually, you did, but thats beside the point. No, I didn't read any of the "sources" that you mentioned, and there is a very good reason. Much like statistics, I can find you any number of "studies", "books", and "arguments" to not only support my arguments, but that also claim that every "source" that you have cited is a complete lie, intended to make white people look bad! I'm not claiming that, but I can find things that do. Hell, I have a book at home (suggested reading by a friend) that claims that slaves loved their owners, and didn't want slavery to end! It even has "evidence" to back its outrageous claims! Personally, I don't very much believe what this particular book has to say. Shall I use it for "evidence"? This is why I don't present any "sources" to you. Keep in mind: history is written by the victors, and, as such, is subject to being flawed. With this in mind, you have yet to present any actual "evidence". I have never said "nah, I don't believe it" to anything you have said. In fact, I have agreed with a good bit of it. You apparently weren't paying attention (or perhaps the board ate that part of my last comment; I see that the last part is missing) when I said that yes, blacks certainly do have it much worse than whites. However, how can you call me not getting hired due to my skin color not racist, but it IS racist when you don't get hired because of your skin color? I don't care what you call such practices, it is blatant racism! This is where I claim that it works both ways! Please, explain to me how me not getting a job because of my skin color is not racism? Not another bullshit "source", but an explanation, in your words. Also, I never tried to equate "what I go through on a day to day basis with what blacks go through". The examples I gave there were ANECDOTAL. See, I do know what it means. Perhaps you should go check the definition again? I also said that yes, blacks do have it much worse than whites, but it still works both ways. How about I try to start the "United Caucasian College Fund" intended for and only available to whites? Think that would go over very well? No? Again, how is this not racism, when we are told that we can't do something, due to the color of our skin? Do I have a problem with the United Negro College Fund (does it ever exist any more?)? No, I do not; in fact, I thinks its a good idea. Its the double standard that I don't like.

"If your grandfather stole a painting from a museum, and then bequeathed it to his heir, then the museum finds said painting, they would expect the return of that painting. Even though the grandchildren were not responsible. That's a better analogy."
In your example, we should make the grandchildren also have to pay a large sum of money, along with the return of the painting. Then, and only then, would it be a "better analogy". Until that point, you are comparing apples to oranges.

"Again with the anecdotal evidence, just because that's the way it is in your county does not mean that's how it is countrywide."
I never  claimed that thats the way it is everywhere. You are the one claiming that schools being segregated and unevenly funded is "countrywide". I was simply explaining to you that it is not. Yes, I know that it works that way in some places. You, however, don't seem to be aware that it doesn't work that way EVERYWHERE. If your "sources" claim that it does, you should begin to question your sources, as they are lying to you. Again, this is why I don't have much faith in your "sources".

"Such a blanket statement, saying that black people are lazy."
Where did I say this? Oh, thats right, I didn't. Never ONCE did I say, or even imply, "black people are lazy". I did, however, say that SOME black people are lazy, then went on to say that some white people are, too. However, to my point that I was trying to make on this subject. Perhaps you can shed some light on some the things that confuse me about (some) young blacks. Why, when there is a smallish group of black youths (6-10) walking down the street, and a largish group of white youths (15-20) walking down the same street, near the black youths, is the (smaller) black group almost invariably louder than the (larger group of) white youths? I'm genuinely curious about this. I travel quite a lot with my job, over most of the Southeastern quarter of the US, plus a little more on occasion, and I've seen this phenomenon pretty much everywhere I go. It also floors me the ridiculous amounts of money some black youths spend on cars. Do you realize that the oversized wheels and minimal sidewall tires that a very large number of black youths insist on driving can cost upward of $10,000? My brother was talking to a young black guy a couple of years ago, when the guy mentioned how hard a time he was having paying his bills. My brother asked him an honest and intelligent question: "why don't you sell your car (full-size mid-80s, with horrible gas mileage and those ridiculous oversized wheels and minimal sidewall tires I mentioned), and get something more practical? You know, better gas mileage, and cheaper to maintain?" The guy looked at my brother, and said, "are you crazy?!! I'm not going to own a car thats not nicer than my house!!" Now, I ask you, what kind of stupid shit is that? I didn't say that "blacks are lazy", but I will say that many of them seem to make "poor life choices". Do some whites do the same? Of course they do, and anyone who says otherwise is a flat out liar, but I have seen far more examples of this type of behavior from blacks. These are they types of things that are holding blacks back, more than anything else: poor decisions. Like trying to blame "the evil white man" for everything wrong in your life. Grab your own bootstraps, pull them up, and help yourself, instead of demanding that everyone else do it for you!
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Male 9
whosaidwhat 

Gotcha, you are not interested in evidence. I guess there is no need to further our discussion.Heck, you are not even interested in pointing me towards sources that support your point of view. I'm trying to expand your horizons, at the same time I'm asking you to do the same for me. Has intellectual discussion really devolved this much? 

 Why are black youths louder than white youths? Jesus, what a question. Ok, Its because black youth's live in perpetual fear of there lives. Get it? Maybe not... Its called bravado.Read "Between the World and Me."

One last point, and its a depressing one.Ive got nothing. If the overwhelming amount of evidence, much of it compiled by our government, social scientists, and NGO's doesn't persuade you, nothing will. You have yet to disprove any of my points, whether it relates to the job market for blacks, or the school system. Great  your school system is fully integrated, how many local school systems do we have in this is country? Yours schools system is the exception not the norm! Point me to one study, just one, that says schools are more integrated than they were 60 years ago? Point me to just one study that says whites have a harder time getting loans than black people do. Point me to just one study supporting your view on the criminal justice system and how colorblind it is. Just one man. You can't though, because those studies don't exist. If you were really such a historian, you would know that in order to back up what an author says, a historian at the end of the book they write will have an extensive bibliography. Your bibliography so far is a big fat 0, nada, nothing.. If you really were so open minded you would take  a look at the links to videos, studies, and novels that Ive sent you. until you do, furthering this discussion is pointless. But go on, keep believing that blacks are just lazy and that if only they would pull themselves up by their own bootstraps blacks would be just hunky dory, contrary to all evidence Ive presented. 

You show me actual evidence based on large populations that black lifestyle decisions are what is to blame here, instead of systemic racism, which you say exists, but then brush off as something that doesn't really matter in the long run, then we can talk more, until then...
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Male 792
justanotherhuman Ok, you want proof? You missed everything I said about all the "proof" out there being skewed, in one direction or the other. Here's some "proof" for you. Try reading "The South Was Right". I don't recall the author. It will tell you all about how the slaves in the 1800s were ok with being slaves, didn't want to be freed, and even loved their masters like family! There is even a "bibliography" at the back of the book, and tons of "evidence" to support these ludicrous claims. But you go ahead and read it, and believe it if you wish; after all, it has "references", so it must be true! This illustrates my entire point (that you choose to ignore) about "sources". I can find you "sources" that support either side of the argument. None are completely truthful, on either side of the issue. Some are more truthful than others, but none are completely truthful. So, there's you a "source" to read. My suggestion is to take what it tells you with a grain of salt. Thats what I will do with any of the "sources" you have provided, if I check them out; take what they tell me with a grain of salt. Thats why I didn't bother reading them; I won't believe them. Find "sources" that support my side of the argument, and I'll be leery of most of the "facts" that they present, too. This is a very devicive subject, with most people coming down on one side of it, or the other. There are very few that are truly "middle of the road". I at least try to be. Am I perfect at it? Probably not. I have admitted that whites were wrong to enslave blacks, or anyone else, and also admitted that there is racial inequality in today's world. My point is simply that the inequality DOES go both ways. Yes, it swings further to one side than to the other, but it still swings! You, however, have demonstrated that you are clearly firmly rooted on one side, and refuse to budge. Until you realize that your "sources" are flawed, as are any that support any other side of the argument, you will continue to be "stuck" where you are now. Why are you so insistent that I provide you with incorrect data? Hell, I can even find you references that claim that a black man invented the incandescent light bulb, and Thomas Edison stole the invention from him. There is a HUGE lie in the entire premise that this claim is based on. The claim is that Edison STOLE the INVENTION from him. This is impossible, as Edison did NOT "invent" the incandescent bulb, nor did he ever claim to. He IMPROVED the incandescent bulb, and made it, more or less, what it is today. With a blatant, outright lie like that, how much of such a book are you willing to believe? When you admit that your "sources", as well as any I might find to support my arguments, are flawed, and to be taken with a grain of salt, we can talk more. Until then....
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Male 792
Yes, there is "black privilege", as well as "white privilege". Are they equal? Probably not, but both do exist.

Blacks can, and do, call whites (and other blacks) racial slurs, and this is considered ok. Turn the tables, and let a white call a black a racial slur? Yep, that's racist.

Try to start a club or group that is whites only? Yep, that's racist, too. However, turn the tables, and try to start one for blacks only. Not only is this ok, its encouraged!

My biggest personal gripe along this line is called "affirmative action". A black person, and a white person, both with the same experience and qualifications, apply for the same job. There is nothing to make either candidate stand out over the other. If the white person gets hired over the black one, for no obvious reason, this is called racism. On the other hand, if it goes the other way, its called "affirmative action". Even if the white person is better qualified for the job, and the black is hired instead, its still called "affirmative action". Not to mention colleges and employers having "quotas" that tell them what ratio of white to minority they have to have. How is this fair?

Now, explain again how there is no such thing as "black privilege". I'll reiterate: I'm not claiming that "white privilege" doesn't exist; it certainly does. But so does the other.
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Male 7,502
whosaidwhat Try to start a club or group that is whites only? Yep, that's racist, too. However, turn the tables, and try to start one for blacks only. Not only is this ok, its encouraged!

I see this from a different standpoint. Some cases are downright segragation, while others are just 'birds of a feather.' 

I live where Mardi Gras got started in the US.  Our area has many 'secret societies', each one is exclusive in its own way. ('secret' only in the 'lets play secret' sense. Most people know then and who are in them.) 

Many are white only.  Just as many are Black only. Many are men only, others are women only.  There is also a children's only society,a few LGBTQ socities and at least one that is only for married couples.  

None are organized from a hatred of those it excludes. Mainly it's just a reason to get drunk and party.

A group tried to do a documentary on the 'racism' of Mardi Gras...but was pretty much shut down by the traditionally black societies. 
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Male 792
megrendel  Ok, good point. However, are any of those "whites only" groups actually banning black members, or is it just that none have tried to join? There are no blacks in the volunteer fire department that I am a member of, but only because the one that joined a few years ago didn't stay long. Not because we made them him feel unwelcome; we are a big, happy family, and everyone who joins is made to feel welcome and a part of the family. Things just changed in his life, and he drifted away from us. Is it the same situation with these groups, or is it actually layed out in the group's charters that blacks are not allowed to join? I have noticed a general tendency for blacks and whites to "self segregate", but it does appear to be slowly going away, which I think is a good thing.
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Male 4,388
whosaidwhat There have been court cases that forced white only clubs (IE golf resort clubs etc) to accept black members. I have never heard of the reverse
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Male 792
thezigrat Good point. Perfect example of the double standard that pisses me off.
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Male 7,502
whosaidwhat The 'white only' and the 'black only' society have no 'no-blacks' or 'no-whites' policy. The societies are formed by association. I'm white, but I still would not be able to join the 'white only' societies, unless I was invited by a member. And that's just the nomination. There is vetting, a probationary period and a while spent as an 'associate member.'

And shitloads of money is involved.
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Male 792
megrendel That's my point. There is nothing "prohibiting" blacks from joining the "whites" society, or vice-versa. It becomes a problem when there IS a prohibition.
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Male 7,502
whosaidwhat Agreed.
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Male 118
"Whites have been the biggest affirmative action beneficiaries in U.S. history". For all the angry, red faced white people. Sure you're gonna love that little factoid. It's the truth, or you're in denial.
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Male 38,035
thething911 Prove it.  You made claim..... Whites are the biggest beneficiaries " of affirmative action.. Prove it.  Sources? Where do you get those "facts"? 
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Male 118
Gerry1of1 You ignorant, I pulled it out of the article. Maybe would've taken you two seconds to google it, and come right back here. And you've got to be fucking kidding me. Which class of people has most benefited from discriminatory prejudices throughout American history? White people. Who gets to go to better schools, live safer neighborhoods, and enjoy the fullest protections of the law? White people. Who has benefited most from "Affirmative action", white people. Knock it in to your head
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Male 1,398
Like all things regarding racism in the US...

IT CANNOT CHANGE UNTIL ENOUGH WHITE PEOPLE, EN MASSE, CHANGE IT.

Do you think black people said "hey, lets not be slaves anymore" OR Did White people say "Hey, lets not have slaves anymore"?

Which one worked?

Do you think black people said "Hey, we should get to vote" Or Did white people say "Ya know we really should let everyone vote"

Which one worked?

Do you think black people said "hey, lets not have segregation anymore" OR Did White people say "Ya know, this whole separate but equal thing isn't really working"

Which one worked?

Now i know everyone likes to pretend they would be on the moral or good side of history, but that is 100% horseshit.
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Male 792
daegog  Actually, in every example you give, both actually happened. Did one group have more of a effect than the other? Undoubtedly. But, in at least some of the cases, the blacks' efforts certainly helped white people see that they were wrong. I'd have to call it a group effort, in most of these cases.
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Male 4
my issue with the "white privilege"  is i think the entire thought process is flawed.  What they refer to as privilege in reality is fair treatment.  yes i get it by default, AS SHOULD EVERYONE. just because i'm treated fairly doesn't mean i'm responsible for their unfair treatment.  i see the person.  man, woman, black, white or any of the others it doesn't really matter.  i have 2 categories.  asshole and not asshole.  I'm not shy about saying others need to be treated fairly, but it completely alienates me when white privilege is thrown in my face as if I'm the oppressor.   I don't have the power, money, time, or inclination to oppress anyone and what "white privilege" does is make it less about how they want and deserve to be treated and just says i'm the problem and shouldn't be treated fairly.  i don't have privilege i just have a lack of oppression.  I FULLY support everyone having the same lack of oppression.  white privilege is really just hiding the real issue which is the ultra rich hording wealth and the rest of us fighting for scraps to eat.  there are fewer and fewer in the middle every year.   it's a 1% rich asshole twisting rules and only stays out of jail because he has good lawyers issue.   
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Male 38,035
geobas1 I believe in both white and black privilege. Example: College entry. Affirmative action says they must have X number of black students so they get in whatever their grades are like but white students have to get in on merit - that's black privilege. After college whites are more likely to get a good job - that's white privilege. 

Both exist. 
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Male 1,398
Gerry1of1 

1) That is NOT black privilege.  The kids were getting bumped scores for admittance because their education was, on average, not as well financed as their white counterparts.  If they spend 10K at year on your kids education and 3k a year on my kids education, HOW can my kid hope to compete with your kid?

2) Exactly what school does this?  I mean as of right now?  I know its 100% illiegal in michigan to acknowledge this discrepancy in educational funding.  And no racial quotas can be used for admissions.
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Male 38,035
daegog 
1) They go to the exact same school as white and latino kids so how can a black childs education be underfunded?

2) Which schools do this? All of them in California. Colleges openly admit they take the top X? percent of black students regardless of their grades. So a white kid could do better but the kid with the dark skin gets  accepted. That is an advantage or a "privilege". Also latino and asian kids but at different percentage levels

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Male 1,398
Gerry1of1

 In 1996, voters approved Proposition 209, which amended Article I of the California Constitution to prohibit preferential treatment or discrimination in public university admissions.

What are you talking about Gerry?   Clearly, for 20 years, California colleges are prohibited from taking x black/latino or whatever students.  So the better question is, WHY would you think the case was otherwise?  Why would you just ASSUME that minorities got this great do whatever and get a college scholarship kinda deal?
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Male 38,035
daegog Yes, the voters did approve that, and I voted with them. But in REALITY the colleges and schools will take the top 10 % of black students... it does not matter if their grades are lower than whites, they still take X number of blacks. X number of latinos. X number of Asians.... they want  federal funding after all.... Deny it all you want, Each group has their plus and their minus. Face reality
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Male 118
Gerry1of1 https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2011/09/06/merit_based_and_private_scholarships_disproportionately_favor_white_students Honestly, you know so little, stfu
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Male 38,035
thething911 This thread was last week. LET IT GO
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Male 163
Gerry1of1 Have you ever heard of a minority company. In construction if you are black and want to work you can def get a job. Federal government requires it on federal jobs. Federal jobs pay very well. Yes i am sure at some level there is white and black privilege but black people are not poor souls that need our handout. If you say that long enough even they will believe it. I think they are just as smart and talented but they need to be challenged and held to the same standards as everyone else. 
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Male 38,035
theman01 Yes I have heard of minority companies and they aren't unusual so I'm not sure what you point is. And I never described african americans as "poor souls who need a hand out" so I'm not sure where that's coming from. 

All I said was everyone has their problems and their privileges ...... it's called Real Life.
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Male 163
Gerry1of1 My point being is they are just as capable as anyone else. If you want it bad enough there is a place for you. I will say i think there should be more job training and less handouts. How many people who had something given to them and they didn't have to earn it really appreciated it. 
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Male 1,398
theman01 Imma call 100% bullshit on this.

I do not know where you live where black people get jobs by walking in doors (i suspect such a place doesnt exist), however, i can say with 100% certainty that any simple job fair, in the city of detroit, will have a MASSIVE turn out, because people want to work but opportunities are not there.

Just this summer, little caesars had a open house for jobs and the line was around the block.  It literally looked like the line for American Idol.

Just to get a crap job at a pizza place with no air conditioning.  
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Male 792
daegog Its called the deep south. In the area where I live, yes, companies over a certain size are required to hire a certain percentage of "minorities". There are whites that are better qualified for jobs being passed up because the company couldn't hire them; they had to hire a minority instead to keep up with the quota.
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Male 163
daegog I live in Cincinnati Ohio and I have hired black people and worked with black. I am in the construction field and there are openings and they need to be filled. There is always room for someone who wants to work hard despite there skin color. 
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Male 38,035
daegog Actually I said they are less likely to get the job so I'm not sure where you got that from. Did you even read what I wrote?
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Male 1,398
Gerry1of1 I dont see where you mentioned they are less likely to get a job, im just trying to nail down this absurd notion of black privilege you seem to think matters at all..

Is it paying higher insurance premiums?  higher Mortgage?  More time in jail for the same crime?  Where is this black privilege?  As we see, in California in terms of education, it does not exist.
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Male 38,035
daegog You want to "nail down" black privilege.. okay.. how many college grants are there for white students only?  What is the affirmative action quota to hire white people? A black man can use any insult against me from 'cracker' to 'snow monkey' and it's okay but if I us  "THE 'N' WORD" I'm a racist.  ??? How do you not see black privilege. 

I am not denying White Privilege exists. It does. I am just saying ALL races have a plus and a minus.  It is called EQUALITY. 
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Male 4,388
Gerry1of1 I promise to never call you snow monkey if you never call me squiddy

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Female 3,273
Gerry1of1 another variant is "If you try to make me personally accountable for my actions, I'll slap the race card down so fast the broken sound barrier will blow a hole in the wall"
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Male 1,398
Gerry1of1 

Scholarships for white people?

TONS EXIST.. Why dont you stop and google, scholarships for irish people, scholarships for german people, scholarships for polish people et al..


What is the affirmative action quota to hire white people?  Hell what is it to hire black people?  Affirmative action has ALWAYS benefited white women more than anyone else because they have the educational background to get those higher level jobs.


I do not know where you work, but im telling you, at my job, if a black man started calling a white guy racial epithets he would be fired post haste, ..

In your fantasy world, where getting to use the N word is SOMEHOW REMOTELY EQUIVALENT to the issues faced by black people is ludicrous.

Maybe if i put it this way..  If I have ten dollars, and you have 10 million dollars, you claim its equal because we both have "ACCESS" to money.  
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Male 38,035
daegog Are you still talking? I think everyone quit listening a while back
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Male 1,398
Gerry1of1 

Ahh, your not even man enough to own up to you own bullshit.. got it.
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Male 38,035
daegog I stated my opinion. You stated yours. Any point in arguing ? 

Didn't think so
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Male 6,181
Gerry1of1 He provides rock hard proof to support his opinion.....does that not affect your opinion at all?
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Male 38,035
Does it have to be Either/Or ?  Can't it be both? There is white privilege about some things, but there is black privilege in other things.
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Male 118
Gerry1of1 no duh. It's a numbers game, there is small, more peripheral benefits to being black. Annnnd, being a black woman in this country means you'll be earning about 30% less over a life time. One is a massive, systemic, centuries old problem, one is a set of cultural benefits that almost any cultural group in the US has for themselves. So, no. There is no such thing as black privelage that is comparable to white privelage. Period, folks. You're thinking otherwise? Your in a bubble world.
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Male 38,035
thething911 How many quotas are there under federal regulation to hire white men?   None?  How many are there for blacks or women? .... That's "privilege". I'm not denying white privilege... I'm just saying other people/genders have privilege also.

If you can't admit that then you are refusing to see reality and I've no time for you. Take your L and go sit in the corner.
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Male 118
Gerry1of1 The law demands equality. how many federal regulations are there saying that in some circumstances it was illegal to hire preferentially? All the laws that require you to hire black people, require you to hire white people to. Condescend elsewhere, it's fucking pathetic seeing you making escuses
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1
https://youtu.be/avim7CJ8N7k
video funny 
klik and enjoy the video
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Male 4,388
Anyone seen Squrlz4ever lately? ... burp, pardon me fur doesn't agree with me.
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Male 225
thezigrat Cough up the rodent, Zig!  Cough it up now!
Baaaaad ZigRat!  Baaad!
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Male 4,388
irk  ~ coughs up rodent~ sorry ~ gives puppy dog eyes  ~
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Male 225
thezigrat Remember, we don't eat our friends.
Here, have a chipmunk instead.

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Male 910
irk Nah. Takes too many for a meal. A squrl is a nice morsel with a side salad.
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Male 4,388
irk Thank you
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Male 225
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Male 4,388
Actually to me, humans are all just organic resources
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Male 4,388
What do you mean "has nothing to do with Trump?" 
Everything has to do with Trump. The Creation, Trump did it. The Discovery of fire, Trump, Rise of the USA, Trump again. Don't you know that Trump, is the smartest, Knows more than any one else. He is the richest. his Tower is the longest ... I mean tallest etc etc etc
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Male 255
Sorry, but the whiners that are complaining about Black privilege are simply whining.

Simply put, folks that come from a privileged background despair when programs are put in place to help those who didn't come from their background.  If the system goes around and tries to make the playing field level, then advancement and achievement would go to those that actually perform.

I have no doubt that part of my personal success was due to benefits I received that I was utterly unaware of at the time.  Things like being raised in a stable household in a good community in a city in one of the best countries on the planet during the best time to be alive in human history. I can't change things in my past nor can I alter things beyond my control.  

However, I can recognize brilliance in those that I work with and mentor those that come after me.  I can help my kids be as racially blind as possible, to ensure gender issues are minimized and to teach them to see the person within the body.

There is only one way to make the world better: raise those below you up.
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Male 163
Buddy of mine that is black. His father was a drug dealer and his mother was an addict. Everyone in his family is now in prison. He said I don't want to live like this. No special program,no special treatment he hussled his way up the ladder at Pepsi. Now owns rental properties and make 80k a year. You don't need a program to GIVE you something. You need a program that challenges you to be the best you. 
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227
"In America you can't even talk about whiteness," said Drew Domalick, who lives in Green Bay, Wisconsin. "If you try to embrace being white, you are portrayed as being a racist. If we had a White History Month, that would be viewed as a racist holiday."

That mouthbreather thinks that Black History Month is a holiday...

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Male 500
barry9a Every month is white history month.
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